GAIN Meets...Will de Lucy, AmplifyME

In this episode, host GAIN CEO Tanya Tracey sits down with Will De Lucy, the co-founder and CEO of AmplifyME.

AmplifyME helps students bridge the gap between theoretical knowledge and practical experience,  by providing free, 2-hour LIVE simulation events to gain experience in investment bank trading and asset management roles.

It's a fantastic opportunity to get hands-on experience which not only helps students get a sense of what they like (and what they don't!) in potential job roles, but also provides an excellent talking point in internship and job applications & interviews. 

Join us as we find out more about AmplifyMe's mission to help all students interested in a career in finance through simulations, training programmes and their fantastic resources. 

For more information, visit AmplifyME.com or listen to their fantastic Market Maker podcast.

For more information on our programmes, internships, events and resources visit gainuk.org. You can also find us on LinkedIn or Instagram.

Transcript

Tanya Tracey

Hello and welcome to the Game meets podcast. I'm Tanya Tracy. I'm the CEO of Game and I'm delighted to welcome here today Will De Lucy, co-founder and CEO of Amplify. Me. Well, welcome very much to the Game Weeks podcast.

Will de Lucy

Thank you. Very happy to be here. Good, good to see you. Again so well.

Tanya Tracey

For those not familiar with and find me, maybe you could tell us a bit more about it and also maybe a bit more about your background as well and how you came to set up and.

Will de Lucy

Absolutely. Thanks, Tanya. Well, it's probably it's quite a personal journey for the reason for, for starting amplifying much like many of our listeners, I'm sure I was a a student thinking that I wanted to work in finance, but. Not really sure what. Area I was quite an average student. I think I wasn't inclined to do. The extra reading around the subject, I needed something a bit more more engaging and when I graduated I was fortunate enough. To to secure. A role in. In markets I was, I was a bond trader. And and when I sat at the trading desk and I saw everything on the screens in front of Maine, when I could see the shapes and the patterns and how an interest rates moved this way, inflation would do this and how everything was correlated to me. It was just a a huge light switch. It was an on off moment where everything that I had been learning about or thought I had been learning about. Made sense? And actually it was a bit more simple than than I had been been studying, so I thought, isn't this amazing how that sort of practical insight? Can really help. Explain what I thought was complex financial theory. That was was was one early experience I had the the impact of practical education. Rather than theory. And then the next. Personal story, I guess, was that I went to a middle tier university and I was I was surrounded by everyone that went to Oxford and Cambridge and and Imperial and they all got first and. They were super, super students. But when it came to performing in the role, and as the years went by, actually there was relatively little correlation between. How somebody performed as a as a student or or where they say? And their success in that role. So I really felt as I went through my early career, there was two big gaps, the theory practical gap. And then the, if you like, potential to perform gap when someone's. A student because. How do you know how someone's gonna perform in a role if they've they've never done a role yet? It's it it. It really. Really. Struck me. So I went through my trading career. And and did well and really enjoyed it and and was very fortunate to find something that that suited my flow and my fit. And then after doing that for about 8 years, I thought right, that's it. Let let's make. A change here. And we started amplifying. I started it. I co-founded it with peers, and we started amplifying to initially give more practical. Cattle markets training to to fill that theory practise gap I. I spoke about. Everything's changed since then. Really, that was. That was 14 years ago and it's been such an interesting, interesting journey to sum up, amplify me now. I would say we design and build flight simulation experiences for different types of roles in finance to help young people. Gain experience in that role and find out whether that type of career path is is suitable for them. That's on on one side. And then the second thing we do as a student going through these role experiences, we give them lots of feedback of their strengths and weaknesses in that role, what they can do to do better and they can then make an informed choice of where and how to apply on the other side, I hope we're solving a problem for many of our corporate clients. So we work with many of the world's largest. Banks, asset managers. Funds where they're looking to hire candidates with a proven ability in the role that they have available, which is very hard to do with with students and recent graduates. So ideally we're able to bridge the gap for the student between university and career and then also bridge the gap between that student and their future and finance, helping them find the right. Career for them.

Tanya Tracey

Brilliant. It's very interesting. And I think that really chimes for us because, you know, obviously we're all about getting more women into the industry and your missions that it is not about your background, but it's about your ability, you know, that's that's really key for us as well. So and we love working with amplify because not only does it chime, you know, resonate really with us. Both us on our mission. And also I think getting that practical experience as well as listening to people from the industry through our events has been really, really powerful. So I would really encourage students to have a look at amplify and look at some of your simulations. And I know we've worked with some with you on some simulations in the past. I think the finance acceleration. Simulation and we've had really great feedback and they love their hands on learning. Can you maybe tell the? Students a bit. More about the simulation and what it involves, and so they know what to expect and and maybe how often you run them. And is it open to everybody, you know, how long do they last? You know, all information would be great.

Will de Lucy

Very, very happy and and and I mean. Yeah, you're dead right, Tanya, we're. We're on the same mission. I think we both want to widen opportunity to finance. And the great thing about the simulation is lots of people out there and and especially young women might think ohh role in that area isn't isn't for me the great thing about the simulation is look with over 2. Hours you can just. Give it a go. You know there's no. There's no downside. It's a practical experience. It gives an insight. So, so to talk a bit more about our finance accelerator simulation specifically. So originally we partnered with Morgan Stanley on this to try and. Give people an. Insight into the difference between working on an investment bank trading. Floor and then. Working on an asset management firms there obviously different types of roles and different types of objectives. We've designed the finance accelerator to really try and. Help a young person understand what institutions exist in the financial industry and what types of roles within those institutions exist. So that's the sort of first lesson and and the reason why and. The way that. We're able to do that is, let's say if we have a cohort of 100 students in one room, it's either in person, we deliver over 750 university campus events a year with this simulation. So we'll either do it in person or we'll do it online as as a special dedicated event like with you at game, Tanya. And the student goes through the flow of communication between an investor that's looking to invest funds. So news and information comes out and it's it's really quite hopefully it's quite introductory. It's about companies like Coca-Cola or Nike brands that people know and the news and the headlines are very. And easy to understand for a non finance student. So for. Apple there might be a headline that says Nike sales dramatically disappoints this year. Investors want to now sell their stock, and so for a young person, even if not from a finance background, they might, you know, have an inclination that that might push a price of an asset lower and. And so as an investor, they're then challenged with well. How do I? Execute a trade because actually for large asset management firms, it's not just the case. Going on an app on a phone or just just just clicking very often, you need a market maker. You need someone to provide liquidity. So the great thing about this simulation is whilst half the students are operating as investors and they're trying to maximise the return on their investment, the other half of the students operating as the sales traders and market. Makers, which are the roles that you might find in an investment bank, or brokering or market making firm, and they're helping those investors. Facilitate their trades. And so it goes through the journey. Now what we do after about 30 or so minutes, once everyone's got used to that role, whether it's the buy side or the sell side. We then swap all of the students around so they get to see the other side of the journey, and there's this holistic experience where it comes together so someone, even if they're not from a finance background, can understand that, OK, this asset manager is trying to make a return on their investments and this sell side service provider is trying to make a return by. Selling their services and it's it's a different type of mindset I think. For any students entering into finance, that type of, that's a really fundamental thing to understand before you start applying, because the last thing you want to do is apply to an investment bank and say I want to trade like a hedge fund trader because that would let the interviewer know you're you're not necessarily aware of of. What the different roles are? What's great about the finance accelerator is it's quite short. Everyone gets detailed performance feedback and metrics they can put. It on their CV. And they can talk about it on LinkedIn, and then we're really keen to identify super high potential candidates that perform well. And we actually. Then sponsor them through further academies so we give them further training, further support and actually just this summer, now we've just taken 40 of the top performing women traders, market makers. Some managers and we've sent them through a three-week programme as well, so very much on that same mission to to really try. Promote talent wherever it's found and try and make opportunity equal for all.

Tanya Tracey

Brilliant. Yeah, I think that's the really interesting thing is that you are looking at all the stats on how everybody's performing over these simulations and then they are getting ranked, aren't they? And then those top performers are going on and getting opportunities, I think. That's an incredible way of looking at it. Is there a specific sort of student success story or anything that you mentioned those Top 40?

Will de Lucy

Yeah, absolutely. I don't wanna make people feel like there's a lot of pressure. There's no pressure here, you know, you you don't see the. Ranking you just get your. Score there. There's no bad outcome here. But but yeah, I mean, the thing about working in different types of roles is there's different types of, I would say, and fundamental types of approaches that can outperform in a particular one. So for example, if you are looking to get into, let's say a a type of trading role then and it's more on the. Market making side or more on the more. If you like active trade. Inside, then we're looking at things like how able is someone to multitask under pressure. Do they keep lots of plates spinning at once and and while still keep a track of what's going on on the platform and and do they enjoy that experience? Is that something, you know, I think you have different types of. I'm a huge believer in horses for courses, different types of people. Two different types of roles. So if you're the type of person where that sort of intensity is fun for you and and and time flies very often the student will finish it to our zoom with us and go. What what? I mean. I thought we just, you know, I was really, really enjoyed that and that's really great. Whereas if you look at some of our more investment banking corporate finance simulations, we've created some great MMA simulations where we're really measuring and we're training and teaching while. We do that. Someone's ability to have a basic understanding of Excel. And modelling and how it works. And then we also actually measure their ability to create a pitch deck and to do that again under under time with the set remix. So different types of skills for different types of roles, which is definitely something I I I did. We believe and and yeah, we we we look at everyone's performance and then we fast track candidates you know those that really show not only a good performance in that SIM but we've got so many different levels of the simulation. Tanya, I'm really interested in how someone reviews the feedback they received off their simulation. So you can see whether they're clicking to learn more. In the areas where perhaps they weren't strongest. And then if they take another simulation, we're really interested to see their growth mindset. You know, were they able to take feedback, learn from it? How did they use that feedback in the next simulation? And there's some really good examples you asked as. A as a case study. One candidate recently, so we work with lots and lots of universities all over the UK. One is University of Strathclyde. There's a fantastic student there. Marie Therese Kerr, and she well, just lives just outside Glasgow, never in her mind had ever crossed, you know, coming to London, never been to London. Before, but you know, fantastic, fantastic candidate, super enthusiastic, and she kept on asking to retake the simulation and learn more and try harder. And and her schools began to to reflect that. And now she's just finished her intern. Well, she's got four days left of her internship down in London. Morgan Stanley. And apparently I've received feedback. It's. Gone incredibly well.

Speaker

And if she?

Will de Lucy

Does secure that front desk roll there? Then it's it's life changing, you know, taking a candidate that they've never been to London before wouldn't even cross their mind. To go into the front office for all that type, the role that I think perhaps in her words, she thought it was only for, you know, the top guys at LS. Then yeah, this is this is a huge reward and I think it's really great for the employer because they have impacted someone's life so deeply that I believe that wants a lot of loyalty and it makes it makes a big impact. You know, I always think there's something a bit wrong with the industry when the top firms employ. The students, who are brilliant at applying for jobs. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, they get the role they expect to get the role, but you know, they've got all of the boxes ticks and it's very, very quick for them to to look and you know the stat we have is within three years of a front desk roll in investment banking or even in markets. The turnover rate is about 30% within that three years. Which is a. Huge expense to to many of these financial firms. So if you're. Able to find those. You know the the, the the needles in the haystack. The diamonds that exist, wherever they are, whatever their background. And then I think you have. Something really special.

Tanya Tracey

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And that's why game was set up because there simply aren't enough women applying to early careers roles in investment management. So. We're trying to explain more and educate more about the about the industry, but I think doing your simulations and it must improve the students chances of applying when applying for internships. Or grad roles. Have you got any sort of? Stats around that at.

Will de Lucy

Yeah, I I think.

Tanya Tracey

All about. Have you done this?

Will de Lucy

I think that's a really I think the way I would sum it up is almost confidence. Once they've done these simulations, especially as in in each of these roles we have a different layers of simulations. So we're running one actually recently in biofuels, interestingly enough, but it starts off. You're basically and then it gets to a point where they're actually using Python to automate. What they're doing and. And it gets, you know, relatively advanced quite quickly and that that's the benefit of having a practical session. And I think when a candidate's been to that experience, I think the confidence comes from repeated use of the language, the type of language that might get used in an interview or in an assessment centre repeated. Feedback from them in terms of discussing. About why they did what? They did their strategies and their ideas. And just getting used to talking about. I mean from the investment management side, you know talking about how they mitigated market risk, how they got into a diversified strategy and the, the, the benchmark and the reallocation of assets and and and so on. So I think getting used to that type of terminology has a big impact on on confidence. So yeah, on on the stats front, we know that when we run our programme that runs over a summer we had, if we look back at the 2020 data, it's now they, they, they've all graduated over 90% are in front desk rolls of of some sort in finance. So that's been a huge, huge reward to us. And there's some, yeah. Crazy stories because we've been around so long, some of the people we've trained are now way more successful than anyone else I know and. Make me feel very old. And in fact, yeah, one one's the fastest growing energy company in London. Who was our first ever trainee. But it it, it's just really interesting to see where where talent comes from and and follow their career path as they as they start. To be successful.

Tanya Tracey

That's brilliant. I love that 90% figure. That's amazing. Is there any? Other advice you'd give to students maybe applying for roles and or even in their early stages of their careers and investment firm.

Will de Lucy

Absolutely. You know we, we, we we see so many different types of approaches I think well, almost 3 stages of advice. I think the first advice is.

Speaker

It's going to.

Will de Lucy

Be competitive. You are going to have to apply to roles you don't get, and you're gonna have to put yourself out there. So that sort of. I I guess awareness. Of of the task ahead. It's definitely not the case to try one or two and and and and maybe not get a positive outcome and and feel deflated. It's just normal. But then there's a caveat. That I would say if you can make your applications targeted, I think one of the biggest mistakes we see is a student who wants to work in finance, apply to lots of different types of roles. And they've even done different roles within the same firm. So let's say for an investment bank, they've applied, you know, both markets and investment banking division and and it's understandable because you're increasing your chances. But I think you will be asked the question why this role, why you for this role and and you have to be able to answer that with a very genuine. Answer I think so. Yeah. One of the reasons why we created those simulations is so somebody can say, well, I know I have experienced how this role is different to a role in trading for example. And and it suits my personality so much better. I enjoy the type of project work that's involved. So I think making an informed decision. If you do get an interview or an assessment centre, it's funny. I think it's a personality type and maybe because I am more of an extrovert it impacts me but it. People are hiring young, such young women, young men, anyone who's joining at an internal graduate level for energy and enthusiasm. And I think it's never harmful to to remember that if the person interviewing you is the wrong side before to like like like I am and maybe maybe feeling a bit tired. You know, if you're coming to that. Type of conversation or into. Of you a little bit, if you like monotone. And and and. And and not so engaged then, then that's that. That's sort of, I think, the opposite of what people are looking for because you haven't got a skill set yet. You haven't got the experience yet. It's just, you know, that enthusiasm and willingness to learn. I think that's the main thing that needs to come across in.

Tanya Tracey

Agreed, and they don't expect you to know everything straight away. So if you've got the energy, they can teach you, it's it's that without that it's a non starter for them, I think.

Will de Lucy

I think the point that you mentioned, Tanya, by the way, in terms of it's OK, you know. You you aren't expected to know anything straight away, and I think some candidates see these interviews as purely an assessment of their knowledge. And it's absolutely if you don't know something or something that's absolute, absolutely fine. So like, I'm not too sure. Could you tell me a bit more about that? I'd love to learn more. Absolutely fine. I think you know the worst outcome is to sort of string an answer together that you're patching together that goes and then then you end up going down down a rabbit hole. That but finally tell me. I'd say practise. Practise that speaking to people you don't know about these types of things. Any way you can get it some like I mean this game while you're doing such a fantastic job. But also you. Know parents, family, friends join the Society, Investment Society, Student Society, where you can have these types of discussions. I think it's it's it's. It's a big part of confidence thing. How how you come across to a potential employer?

Tanya Tracey

No, absolutely. And I think when in our programme is what we see is we allocate a mentor from the industry to every student who attends one of our programmes and. That sort of. One-on-one relationship is really, really helpful, sort of. Put that practise. So practising how you're coming across the future employers is really valuable. So yes, I totally agree with that.

Will de Lucy

Actually, tennis. So one of the interesting things sometimes about the simulations that we get the feedback on is sometimes candidates that have done really well in the simulations just because of their person, just because maybe they're very nervous in the conversation. You know, despite everything, might not actually interview. That well, we have had had feedback once or twice about that and it's normally not the case. But when we do get. That feedback? What's? Really interesting. We helped a young female student. Secure role at. Quantitative hedge fund and the HR team were were speaking with me before before they hired her saying. Actually, she just didn't come across that that well in the interview, although she obviously knew her staff, she she knew everything we can't decide. And then I was be able to show, you know, just how they performed throughout simulation after simulation. And that's really helpful for us to say, OK, well, like, you know, they can do the wrong. So not coming across that well in an interview, it might be nerves, it might. Be, you know, just, just, just, just. To it might be the wrong day. Who knows? But you can see over day after day, they perform well in The Sims, and she's hired and it's still. There for years later and and. And smashing it so. Yeah, I do think interviews are tough. If you're innately not that type of person who enjoys speaking to, to, to strangers, and so hopefully the the simulations can help. Though too are there.

Tanya Tracey

Any when you speak to investment firms, are there any other sort of issues they have when they're hiring, you know, obviously the the simulations that you're. Doing are really. Really helpful for them in terms of making decisions. But is there? You know, we speak to fans all the time and they're trying to hire more female talent. There's just not enough applying, you know? Are there any other issues that you come across when when you speak to firms?

Will de Lucy

I think it's really difficult so, so not enough. Applying female talent is is definitely one. I think nearly everyone was speaking to at the moment and that's why you're, you know, so, so well placed with what what you're doing. You know, they want more women to apply. They need a bigger female talent pool. And I think that's a that, that, that that's a problem that. Needs to be addressed. You know, early on, still at school, pre, pre, university. Really just to try and help. Yeah. Broaden the attraction to to these opportunities. So so. So that's one for sure. I think the other one is helping the business understand that just because someone went to a different university or university that they might not. Normally rank particularly highly. It doesn't mean that this person is any worse than someone that went to to to top university. Do you think that mindset needs to change and some of the investment firms we work with, you know they've got their they tend to, they might employ from five or six different names and that's what they're very happy with. So I think in order to achieve our mission, we need to sort of change that mindset that you know, if someone came from a non top tier university or one that you're not used to. That here's their results. This is why they're going to be good, and it's definitely someone. Someone to be considered it's it's it's. It's a it's an uphill challenge, but but it is happening slowly. I think lots more of our clients are beginning to talk about diversity of the. Diversity of mindset, creativity, and if everyone's coming from the same programme and the same university, even though you might have diversity of race and actually you, you you're struggling on the diversity of thoughts. So. So I think that's the next challenge.

Tanya Tracey

Yeah, we have exactly the same conversation. So I think for us, we're seeing it improving overtime, definitely sort of firms are becoming. Much more aware of. Diverse backgrounds as being key in their teams, so yeah, that's really interesting. So I guess it's probably in terms of if students want to learn more about amplify, what do they do next, you know how? How can they learn more about you and get involved?

Will de Lucy

Well, yeah, absolutely. Please do check thisoutamplifyingme.com. And if you go to the student area, you'll see there's the finance accelerator you can register for free. And you can just click put your e-mail address, choose the date we run a couple of these every week and that is a direct opportunity to then get fast tracked onto further training and then fast tracked and just supported, I think a big area of our mission is is education. And once you sign up to any simulation, we actually have got over 100,000. Subscribers on a newsletter. Called the market maker. Which goes out six times a day, and what 6 * a day that would be. Too much six times. A week and what we're trying to. Do with that the. Daily e-mail shot is sort of say to any student again from any. Background wherever they are. What are the kind of conversations that a young person would be having if? Both their mum and dad were investment bankers or asset managers and. What kinds of conversations would they be having if they went to the the top top school that had the best careers advisor with this daily e-mail we're sending out that daily daily support careers advice. What's going on in finance now? What matters for investment? Top stories, case studies of you know who mailed an assessment centre and again, it's that big drive to level the playing field. I think with practical experiences with more targeted information and then hopefully we can help many, many more students compete in the application. Because I think when it comes down to Tanya, we still. And I know you two, you still want the best person to be hired for the job, so not hired because of their background hired no matter what their background. So in order to achieve that, I think both the simulations and and the newsletter and the education. Are are a big. Part of it. So yeah, have a look amplifyme.com.

Tanya Tracey

Strongly recommend the e-mail. It's very, very good and also suggest everybody follows you on LinkedIn because you're pretty active on LinkedIn and you also have a great podcast, don't you? Which I. Think is also called market Baker, right?

Will de Lucy

Really, the market there and I just just to point on LinkedIn actually. I mean sometimes, you know, talking to students, they're saying it's so difficult. It's never been harder than than before. You know, this is this is as hard as it's ever been to secure what the the top roles, it's so competitive. And that's correct. But I think the the complete game changer for anyone now looking now is LinkedIn. LinkedIn has become the tool that the industry use and and imagine the power of it. If you have an interview with Brevan Howard in in a months time and you.

Speaker

You know.

Will de Lucy

You can Google just. Your name? LinkedIn. Your university. Sorry, your university LinkedIn. Maybe the name of the person that's in. You you can connect with them directly or even if you're not confident to do that, you can just follow people who you're interested in following and see what they're talking about. And then if there's something to connect with them, you never before has someone looking for a role been able to connect directly with the people who count. So I I do think, yeah, if you're not on LinkedIn yet, that's that would. Be my 4th. Piece of advice to to get.

Tanya Tracey

Amazing. Well, well, thank you so much for for joining us. I think it's probably a good place to end, except maybe just to say that it's not just university students that you do the simulations for. It's school students as well, I think. So. I think we have school and university students listening to this podcast. So they should sign up as well. And so thank you very much and I hope. All of you. Will now follow Amplify and get some information and start doing. Some of the simulations. We do do some gain and amplify simulations as part of our events programmes we do. Look at for. Those as well, but obviously. Just go direct to amplify as well for elimination dates. In terms of just general information about game, just keep checking us out on the website. Obviously all our events and everything that we do is free and we run various programmes in site programmes and an internship programme as well, so please do have a look at that and the website is up to date with the latest. Programme, application dates etc. Thank you very much. Well, it's been great to have you on board and thank you so much for your partnership with gain. It's been really, really great.

Will de Lucy

Thank you, Tanner. Absolute pleasure. To speak to you.

Speaker 1

Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this podcast, we'd love it. If you could rate and review the podcast wherever you're listening now. And if you'd like to find out more about our work and how we can help you visit gameuk.org, we'll see you soon.